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hmmm, your argument sounds familier. A friend of mine told me the same thing. Dispelling logic and saying everything has a possibility to dodge all logic and scientific proof, at least, that's how I saw it. Still it is still rather interesting because you are, if you are, trying to convince me - thus logically - your point of view.

1. science and logic
If everything is possible and science is not related to logic, then science can not be trusted. Or, by your reasoning, it could be true and yet it could not be true, you can not rule out the possibility of all possibility. Gravity is not neccessarily for all matter and inertia may be true. Light may travel at light speed but it can also not. The doppler effect may be true and centripedal force may be true for some cases. Apples don't neccessarily have to fall towards the planet but maybe fly outwards with equal velocity. Cups on a table can possibily blow up and move in circles without intervention.

Why would I even dare say such illogical things? Simple. What is science? Science is the study of the physical world and phenomenas. For the scientific method you have to observe the thing whatever it may be. For science in general you need to observe something before saying that the phenomena is guided by this law. But! scientists have not proven that the gravitational force or its equation for all matter. They have proved it for matter on earth or perhaps in our galaxy, but not for the whole universe. Thus, by your logic, there is a possibility that gravity does not exist for matter. there may exist a place where apples fly into the air and not to the ground.

Do you get my point? We have not proved the cases true for every matter and everywhere that these laws of gravity or light or other things to be true. Thus, by your reasoning, it could be that they are not true. Just because we havn't found a rock that radiates infinite electrical energy on earth does not mean it does not exist. Science is observing the physical world and then using logic and math to deduce why/what. If the laws are not consistant then science is not accurate and can not be trusted. Yet since we have not proven that these laws are true for all the universe, you can, by your own reasoning, say that the reverse can be true.

And if otherwise can be true then science is not completely consistant and therefore can not be trusted. So by your reasoning of needing to prove something 100%, you are also saying science can not be trusted but only that it could be true and could be not true.

2. tried Christianity
hmmm, if you don't want to discuss the reason that's fine. But I just want to say, though it may be completely irrelovent, even if the people are bad, the God is not.

as for proving, there are more than just experiences that can prove God exist. Not that you would believe I think, even if I gave them to you. It does not seem like that logic and reasoning is what you are after - and do correct me if I am wrong. But rather, just projecting your belief that everything could be possible if it is not 100% proven. Which, I think, is a very good way to dodge everything that comes at you.

3. fear = bad?
lol, then you just contradicted your own statement. You said, in an earlier post, that what people fear they have defined to as sin. Obviously, sin is bad. Self contradiction?

4. why prove
Of course, its your free will so if you don't want to prove anything, you don't need to. Normally, if I have not mistaken, humans prove stuff to either convince themselves or convince others. In this case, if I was to want to convince you then I would need to prove it to you. But of course, that is not always enough. Yet regardless, if you were trying to convince me of anything, you would also need to prove it to me. Which, I'm almost sure you would say you are not convinceing me of anything and thus no need to prove anything.

5. Bible
You refused to prove it either way. But you made a statement that the things inside probably did not happen. Without logic and reasoning this discussion is useless in the first place in terms of convincing. Rather, merely a projection of one's own thought. I can tell you that there is more proof for the validity of the Bible and no proof for its invalidity. Thus with the comparison of proof I can refute your statement and say the opposite "it is probably true" Yet, of course, I do not think it would matter to you.

There isn't a way to prove God exhists. Thats where faith comes in.

Logically, though, there had to be some sort of higher being, because the universe couldn't have just appeared. Something beyond our capacity to imagine had to have been there to create it.

Thank you for that Kovic

Really, that is what I am been trying to get to this whole time. Faith is believing or even hopeing that something higher or better exists. People feel faith differently, which is why religion is so diverse.

Because there might or might not be something different, we don't have the knowledge to every know what it is.

You souloe, have been telling us the logic and truth to your religion. Someone of Islamic culture could do the exact same thing. Every organized religion on this planet could tell you why they are right, because to them, there is nothing to wonder. That is the problem with religion! Everyone thinks they are right! There are so many amazing religions in the world with awesome logic and morals. There is something out of every religion I know, that I agree with, that I think is right, that I question and that I learn from. It is because I don't belong to a set of codes that I can experience that. Because I can see 'out of the box'.

You seem to think that I am against religion. I am not. We succumb to religion because we were brought up in it, because we fear the unknown or any other reason. But I never said religion itsellf was wrong. Religion guides people and gives them hope. I would never say you should take it away. If people think they feel something else, they just might, no one else should be the judge of that.

And Christians of all people forget who we are! I told you I was raised christian, and I was. The core belief of that religion is to accept people for who they are. God made us, God loves us dearly, and he made each of us special and different because he cares for every one of us. And yet, we are being chastised because we want to use what he gave us in a different way? That is throwing out your BASIC MORAL PRINCIPLE! Ever hear the phrase "What Would Jesus Do?" Jesus wouldn't need to prove God exists, he wouldn't try to convince people their beliefs are wrong. He would accept us for who we are, and we would probably realize that what he says has truth. That is what Jesus would do.

Proving that one God exists is like telling half the world they are wrong. That what they have had faith in is rubbish. When people have the same faith as YOU do in YOUR religion? If I told you the bible wasn't true, you could tell me a thousand more reasons why it is. So could anyone else with their own religion. The same faith YOU feel THEY feel. They feel it is a different way.

Why?

Because we are different of course. Because every one of us is special, unique, and mysterious.

That's why.

@Rioku:

This topic is getting populated. Very interesting. I'll reply to you here first, don't have too much time to read/comment on the others yet. Irl is indeed busy.

1. Scientific
Just because you claim that science proves half the stuff can not be true does not mean that statement itself is true. Hence the topic of this thread. So since you made that claim, I would like to hear solid proof scientifically to support those claims. And we can continue from there once you have done so.

2. fear, sin, bad
essentially, it was you who said that fear turns into sin. You also said that raping is a sin. If you believe raping is not bad or that those statements that you made has no correlation then...okay.

As for who is to say who is right and wrong. Let me tell you what I think. If there is no God, then there is no right and wrong. Merely what is best for #1. If there is God however, and if He did create the universe adn everythign in it, then good and evil is most probably a standard based on Him. Course, now the question is: "Does God exist"

3. Christianity
Christianity says that God is a just and loving God. He created man and gave him free will so that he could choose to love Him and Him them in return. Yet free will entails the possibility for evil. When man chooses to do evil, God, being that He is just, must punish those that do evil. (If you want you can think the court punishing those who broke the law.) The punishment for sin is death. Now, if He killed us all, then we'd ask, "I thought He was a loving God?" Yes, He is a loving God. But He is also a just God. The debt must be paid. And He gave up His only begotten son to pay it for us, to die for us, to die on a cross.

Now you may think that's whatever. But if you've studied ancient Rome and the crucifixion, you would think otherwise. Think about it this way. If you had a kin that did something wrong and was sentenced to death, would you choose to die in their place? If that death meant that you would be beaten till your skin ripped to the point where you can see the white bones in you, spat on and mocked by an entire city, would you choose to die in their place? Now suppose there was more. Suppose you have to carry a cross on your battered back and walk all the way to outside a city to be hung naked to die with nails driven into your wrists and feet, hung up for all to see, if you have not given up the notion already, would you still keep going? Now realize this, on a cross it is hard to breath because of the positioning and the design. So to breath, you have to push your naked body upwards to gasp for air. Yet if you do, you would agrivate the nails in your wrist and legs pushing your body's force against it. You would suffocate to death or bleed to death over extended amounts of time. Would you be willing to die a death like that? To take their place so that they may have a chance at life?

Now, that was only a fraction of what Christ did for us. Suppose, for a moment, we assume that he is who the Bible says He is - the son of God who came and died for us - then what would it entail? It would mean that he chose, willingly, to degrade himself from an all powerful God to a child who can't even feed himself. In human terms, perhaps think of a king degrading himself to a begger. He lived his entire life knowing that His purpose in life is to die a horrific death. A God, spat on and mocked by the men He created. Can you imagine the humiliation? With the power to control the seas and the storm you now have to endure spits, mockery and beating from humans. And it isn't that you don't have the power to crush them all. Yet He endured it. He endured the cross and then him who hated sin, took on the sin of the world. Not only that, but His father turned His face away. Imagine, the person whom you love, being with for all eternity and always loved each other, now turns His face from you, how would you feel? Would you be willing to endure all that so that someone else can have a chance at life? Would you still do that knowing that there is a chance that you will never be thanked and that they will reject you, spit at you and call you stupid after your death?

Now if indeed there is a God willing to put up with all that for our sake, because of love, then what do you think we should do? If someone endured all that so you can have a chance at life, what would you do? Reject him, spit on him and call him stupid?

The crux of Christianity is about love. It is about how a loving God wnats to have a relationship with us. And of course, as with every relationship there will be ups and downs, joys and sadness, even misunderstandings, but if He was willing to go through that kind of death, does that not mean he has the heart to want to rebuild a relationship with you? What do you think?

4. Proving God exist
I will use an argument is based on logic and our universe. I do hope that you do not mind. I will prove it using the universe itself and four premise. The universe, of course, is all time, all space, all matter, all light, and all energy and essentially, all the physical worlds. Our universe.



Now, proving is one thing, believing is another. Just because I can prove it, if you would belive I would be happy. Yet I have seen that people, if they don't want to believe, will find everyway possible not to believe. I have seen that too much lately so if indeed this is the case I would not be surprised. It is, as I have said many times already, your free will. I will not and can not force you.

i dont believe in 'god' i belive that there are god's(plural)
and they dont do favours and thigs like that, instead they play games.
with the fate of singular and groups of people, like wars and other things.

oh and if u think i have stole this from a book, i have because it makes alot of sense, terry prachetts discworld rules

((@dboyzero: don't worry about it. we do have a life outside of gaia and some of these discussion stuff can get quite long. Take your time.))

1. ruling out other possibility
when I made that statement I meant within the argument. With every premise, we have either X or not X - where x is the choices - and thus the only possibility is one of the two. It is, or it is not. And with every premise we have ruled out one - through logic and science - thus left with the other until we came to the conclusion that this universe is willed into being. With that said, we have ruled out all otherwise possibility for each premise and finally come to a conclusion.

2. not believing all of science
Ah, very interesting. If say, you do not believe everything science says is true, then you can not say that the stuff in the Bible is unscientific in a sense. Using science to say the Bible false is essentially saying that science is truth and using it to compare the Bible. Yet if you can't even trust science, then using it to support your claims is a simple waste of time. Thus if you say you don't believe all science is true, then logically, you using science to support your claims would be rather...ironic and a waste of time.

3. moral
yes, you have claimed your statement many atimes. But until you actually support it with evidence or, if we use your way of thinking, prove it 100% you can not say it is 100% true.

4. Jesus Christ
Now, perhaps that was not your intention but if you meant to say that I fabricated his life, I will take it as an insult. There are many things I can tolerate, but this is not one of them. He is my GOD. If I did fabricate anything I would be disrespecting and insulting my God. Not only have a falsely testified for Him but I would have deliberately disobeyed His direct command. I revere my God and I will tell of His truth, I refuse to tell of lies. And if you say that I fabricated my Lord's life, I will be highly insulted.

5. God
Did I claim that this single logical deduction would prove that the Christian God is the God? I do not believe I have said that. Rather I have said that this can prove God exist. And essentially, I have. If this universe is willed into being then, by definition, what do you call the thing/being/mind that did the action?

6. Science
If you really think about it, you'd realize that science does not refute the existance of God. Inertia says that moving bodies will keep moving. But we know that if you let a ball roll, it will eventually stop. Does it mean science is wrong? No, but rather there is another factor called friction. Now, can water normally turn into wine? Of course not. But if there was another factor - namely God in this case - can it happen? Yes it can. Does science prove that God can not exist? No it doesn't. You could always try to prove me otherwise of course. So if indeed there is a God, then those things are not impossible.

7. proof
and what makes the logical deduction not concrete I might ask?

8. Proving the Christian God is the true God
I have already proven, by logical deduction - unless you could prove otherwise, that this universe is willed into existance. Now to prove that it is, in your words, "the Christian God" I only need to prove that Jesus Christ Is the son of God and that the Bible is credible. Would you like to hear it? I do not claim to know everything about it but I'll do what I can. Perhaps its easier if dboyzero criticize the Bible and its credibility and then I give comments. Sinec you said you refuse to prove the Bible wrong and since dboyzero has proven to me that he is either quite a thinker or have been taught quite well.

lol, I didn't realize that it was you in another account until I actually looked carefully razz

1. telling logic and truth to my religion
Yes, if others can do the same then by all means, please do. Why? Becuase that is the purpose of this topic. "Why do you believe what you believe?" Hence, sorry if I am slow but, what is wrong with posting the logic behind Christianity? Its not like I'm forcing you to believe, though... I can and do say I am trying to persuade you to do so. You can always try to prove me wrong, in fact, I encourage it. That is this thread's purpose if I have not mistaken.

2. against religion
hmmm, actually, I think you are against Christianity but... if you say you are not then that's fine.

3. chastised?
you are free to rape innocent little girls (not personal of course since you are using a girl account). You have the ability to do so. But if you are caught, will the court say "oh, its your freedom, go ahead". If they did, you would start wondering where that english term went... what was it again? oh yes, Justice.

4. what would Jesus do
perhaps my knowledge in the Bible is frail comparing to yours but from my knowledge Jesus did not prove God exist. He told people about how God is like. He didn't convince people their believes are wrong, He told them blatantly that they are wrong. And He does accept us for who we are. Think about it this way, if you did something wrong, your parents would still love you for who you are but they will definately not love what you did. They will even punish you to help you correct. Jesus accepts us for who we are but don't get that confused by adding that "He accepts everything we do" into it. As well we don't neccessarily have to accept His teachings just like a child might not see why playing with a knife is bad and refused to believe their parents until they experienced the pain. What's free will? The ability to choose.

5. Proving one God exists.
Yes, very simply put, I am saying more than half the world is wrong. That is my belief. Ask the Muslims and they will say all Hindus are wrong. Ask those who practice original Buddism adn they will say there is no god thus all religions who has god in it is wrong. Am I being rash, stupid and close minded? If I can not support my claims and the validity of Christianity, then yes. But since I have demonstrated that I can support my claims i have also demonstrated that ti is not blind faith, irrationality or illogical belief.

If anyone else could prove their religion true with the same amount of evidence and logic as those that support Christianity, I welcome them to prove it here. In fact, I challenge them to prove it here.

6. faith
As well, there's something rather interesting that you might not have thought of. By me posting that I believe that more than half the world is wrong, i have essentially drawn a bull's eye on myself for all to attack. By saying that I believe God is the absolute truth I have made that bull's eye even bigger. A single proof of refutation of God would mean that I am wrong and crash down all my beliefs. Yet, why would I expose myself be attacked by possibly more than half the world? Either I am extremely stupid, over confident or am taking a leap of faith. Like I said before, i don't know everything about the Bible or all the proofs that supports it. I don't have all the answers. So theoretically, I shouldn't have confidence in my own knowledge simply becaues it does not have everything, yet I still posted what I did. You may take it as something else, but I personally take this as a step of faith. If indeed my God is true, then there is no way you can refute Him, not a single evidence/proof to do so. Let the Lord my God be my strength and my shield. In him I trust and when I am helped with my voice I give Him praise.

7. same faith
If you are to make that statement, you must first show me that they have an equivilant amount of logic and support for their faith. Otherwise, the comparison is invalid. I believe by faith, yes. But I am also able to back this faith with logic and proofs. If they can do so, with all due respect, please, invite them to this topic and let them do so. This is, afterall, the thread that says "why do you believe what you believe"