The Death Penalty

[NOCTVRNVS]

Kindred Kind

Everyday that passes, and with every news program, newspaper, web blog, talk show, commercial, political ad campaign, liquid brained junkie I see, I believe more and more that THERE ARE circumstances and a large assortment of them where the "Death Penalty" is in fact THE ONLY JUSTICE.

The SADDEST injustice is like so many have stated already, is the FACT that the "Death Penalty" is in fact a JOKE!

Depending on which country or state that you may live, this could mean either the criminal will get 20 yrs with a chance of parole (some occasions less), or worst case scenario spend 40+years feeding like a parasite off of our consciences, relaxing in a secure, somewhat controlled environment with TV times, exercise facilities, food, shelter, medicine etc.

AND YET there are people homeless...

I say kill the ones that are MONSTERS, put the others to work (let them build their own shelter), and give the prisons to the homeless to rehabilitate them with the food, shelter, healthcare, education, counselling etc., that is so preciously provided for the vermin of our societies.

With justice so inconsistent and even non-existent at times, there's very little fear of consequence resulting in more of these offenders being found everyday.
Maybe the "real reason" that the amount of these types of crimes that could/should result in the death penalty being enforced, has risen is because we have (for the most part) done away with the death penalty?

Totally agree, and hey, what ever was wrong with the OLD death penalties anyway? Punishment AND entertainment all in one!!

Once upon a time, criminals WERE put to work. Making cement & kitchen appliances... ahhh good times.

emeraldgreen3

I FEEL IT IS WRONG !!!! NO HUMAN BEING HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL ANOTHER HUMAN BEING, FOR TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A WRITE !!!!! WE CAN'T KILL THEM BACK!!!!!!! THAT'S NOT WHAT GOD WANTS !!!!!! WHO ARE WE TO THINK WE CAN KILL WHO SO EVER KILLS SOMEONE ELSE!!!!! WE'RE NOT GOD, THATS NOT OUR PLACE !!!!!! & IF U THINK THE DEATH PENALTY IS RIGHT THEN GOD SHOULD HAVE KILLED US ALL, FOR WE HAVE ALL SINNED!!!!!!

WOW, can you please not talk about religion if you are in an incoherent state... thanks...

Two wrongs don't make a "write" LOL!!

"That's not what God wants", yeah right, that's why God Himself advocates the death penalty numerous times throughout the Bible, and in pretty much every established religion that ever existed. In fact according to the Bible, God initiates the death penalty a few times Himself!

Secondly, nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it state "thou shall not kill", unless you have one of those asinine modernized Bibles where they fit everything to be more convenient in modern life.

Third, please tell me where, in whichever religion you are of, it's decreed that God kills man for commiting sin...

And finally, yes, I believe a few humans DO have the right to kill another human. For more details please refer to the book known as the Bible... but seriously, the death penalty happens (and should happen) because people deliberately take away some-one's right to live, they understand that they are killing an innocent person, and so they have committed the ultimate crime and there is simply no other way to adequately punish the atrocity but death. Do unto others as you would have done unto you -- the law is simply enforcing the golden rule.  

[Kindred Kind]

In response to the raising of "God" within this topic, who are WE to say what God wants? Which God, What God, Here a God, There a God, Everywhere an Oh my God!! Who's to say THERE IS a God?

And comparing us to animals; well... Who are WE anyhow?
What makes US think that we are the SUPERIOR species, the "chosen ones" of our "chosen" gods?
It seems to me that that the only things we are IN FACTUALITY "superior and intelligent" at are DESTROYING THE VERY WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE, which also incidentally is responsible for all "creation". Hmmmm. Lots of Topics are being covered here.

The long and short of it, animals kill each other for a variety of reasons, they build/find homes, forage, hunt, breed, play, hurt, feel, sleep, etc., but I have yet to hear of ANY who debate whether or not they are doing "God's will". I'm certain that if any who are ANTI death penalty debaters here- had a child or precious loved one- maybe even themselves- Viciously attacked, eaten alive, tortured, played with, ADD TO THIS the only human extra--"psychological (*insert f word+ ing here) up (that only we the "superior race/species/whatever" have the capability of inflicting on another) would DEFINITELY consider if not DEMAND that the "ANIMAL" be destroyed.
In our Human case here, we not only spend countless, precious hours, minutes even seconds debating the issue, but coddling the offenders etc, etc, while a LARGE number if not ALL are spending their warm, lonely nights climaxing to dreams of future atrocities they will inflict on the ones you may love next "if and when their lawyer wins their appeal" or they can break out.
* I live near/around within 100km's of several maximum security penitentiaries, and believe me, they don't Change. There are murders, riots, escapes, rapes, drugs, many even not on "death row" do whatever they can to get caught and go back after only a short time back in society- they've got it better than welfare.
Obviously, we are talking about HUMAN ATROCITIES here. The types of Monsters I have in mind for the Death Penalty are not the kind who's cases would leave ANY shadow of a doubt.
Maybe you've heard of the Robert Pickton case in BC Canada? Well, I lived not far from his farm when it was all happening, have lived through having a friend and several children within my community victims of Clifford Olsen in the 70's who both play games with the police and victims families with respect to locations and numbers of bodies, demands for money/burial site info trades, and I could in good conscience (not without sadness) flick the switch, give the order, whatever it takes to make that abomination non-existent.
We're not talking about 1 crime here- even if it was only 1 victim- anyone involved is a victim, nightmares, fear, loss of innocence, trust- the crime never ends, usually not even with death.  

[Rose of Pluto]

I'm kind of torn over this topic. I've switched from being pro on this topic, to being con. Say there was a man that was executed for murdering four people. The families of the victims might sleep easy at night, knowing that the man was dead, but, it wouldn't be able to bring their loved one back. Also, crime rates in places that have the death penalty are higher than those that don't.  

[Der Freischuetz]

Rose of Pluto

I'm kind of torn over this topic. I've switched from being pro on this topic, to being con. Say there was a man that was executed for murdering four people. The families of the victims might sleep easy at night, knowing that the man was dead, but, it wouldn't be able to bring their loved one back. Also, crime rates in places that have the death penalty are higher than those that don't.

Is the crime rate higher because of the death penalty or is it because states that do use the death penalty have higher populations and a larger police force to go along with that population?  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Rose of Pluto

I'm kind of torn over this topic. I've switched from being pro on this topic, to being con. Say there was a man that was executed for murdering four people. The families of the victims might sleep easy at night, knowing that the man was dead, but, it wouldn't be able to bring their loved one back. Also, crime rates in places that have the death penalty are higher than those that don't.

Very poor points... no-one likes the death penalty because they think it will bring back dead innocents, we like the death penalty because it's the ONLY way to prevent MORE incidents from happening. Serial killers are often perverse and brutal in their crimes, raping and killing (usually not in that order) their victims before doing whatever else they would do to get their jollies. What do you recommend as treatment for a "person" like that? Can you take someone who thinks dogs tell him to rape and eat women and put him in a nice little home where he will be around other nice crazy people and draw pictures about the sunshine and dolphins, and hope that he will be just fine? No, because he's not going to, if he had ANY understanding of his crimes or had a shred of human conscience he would have never been able to fathom performing such abominable acts in the first place. This person will NEVER get better, whether you put them in jail, an asylum, or whatever, they're going to get that familiar lust again for killing and whatever else they like to do to others, and no pansy nurse or jail guard is going to be able to stop him from doing that. I would even go so far as to say it is unfair to put other criminals in the PRESENCE of someone so disturbed.

As for crime rates, well, we can't use crime rates as evidence against the death penalty. Perhaps the death penalty exists in those places because they HAVE such high rates of severe crime.  

[Efstathios]

Sometimes the perpetrator of a violent crime can be rehabilitated. There are psychologists out there who specialize solely on rapists. There are people who can be guilty of terrible things due to something in their past that they must, with help, move past to become again productive members of society.

There are some though, for whom their crimes are part of a deeper psychosis, one which can never be cured. Some people are "just sick" with no chance of recovery. In which case death is a kinder alternative. I support the death penalty in cases such as that, a repeat offender who has escaped utterly unchanged from any attempts to heal him/her.

If people must persist in using the death penalty in cases less extreme than the above described, then I support shortening the wait. A guilty person draining the states resources that could be used for something much more useful, or an innocent person left to stew awaiting near-certain death. I think it is kinder to the condemned to shorten the inevitable.

As for method, I think the condemned should choose between lethal injection, electric chair or the proposed methods here of beheading and gunshot to the back of the head. As previously stated, there would be no shortage of volunteers for executioner.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

Sometimes the perpetrator of a violent crime can be rehabilitated. There are psychologists out there who specialize solely on rapists. There are people who can be guilty of terrible things due to something in their past that they must, with help, move past to become again productive members of society.

There are some though, for whom their crimes are part of a deeper psychosis, one which can never be cured. Some people are "just sick" with no chance of recovery. In which case death is a kinder alternative. I support the death penalty in cases such as that, a repeat offender who has escaped utterly unchanged from any attempts to heal him/her.

If people must persist in using the death penalty in cases less extreme than the above described, then I support shortening the wait. A guilty person draining the states resources that could be used for something much more useful, or an innocent person left to stew awaiting near-certain death. I think it is kinder to the condemned to shorten the inevitable.

As for method, I think the condemned should choose between lethal injection, electric chair or the proposed methods here of beheading and gunshot to the back of the head. As previously stated, there would be no shortage of volunteers for executioner.

Yes, and I mean what about incidents where someone goes on a shooting spree killing 42 people laughing all the way, how could you propose anything LESS than death for such an insidious crime? He knows he did it, he knows he wanted to, and he probably wants to do it again! There is nothing else fair but to kill the b*****d.

As for forms of capital punishment why are we going so pansy with this stuff? What was wrong with the three-swing beheading, and the hanging? Well actually, the problem with the hanging was that the killer's head came off half the time from such a high drop and a tight noose, which is the primary reason it was eventually stopped. I wonder why you'd want to stop just because of such a minor detail confused  

[Efstathios]

NOCTVRNVS

Yes, and I mean what about incidents where someone goes on a shooting spree killing 42 people laughing all the way, how could you propose anything LESS than death for such an insidious crime? He knows he did it, he knows he wanted to, and he probably wants to do it again! There is nothing else fair but to kill the b*****d.

42 people would make him a repeat offender, if he went on that long the logical assumption would be that rehablilitation would not be possible and he would deserve nothing other than the death penalty.

NOCTVRNVS

As for forms of capital punishment why are we going so pansy with this stuff? What was wrong with the three-swing beheading, and the hanging? Well actually, the problem with the hanging was that the killer's head came off half the time from such a high drop and a tight noose, which is the primary reason it was eventually stopped. I wonder why you'd want to stop just because of such a minor detail confused

I don't see anything pansy about electrocuting someone. Have you ever gotten a high voltage electric shock? Most people jump from a bigger spark of static electricity.
Swingin's are messy and we're killing the offender because we hold ourselves to a higher moral standard. Sinking to his/her level goes against the very reason the kill is taking place.
We are humane, the killer isn't. That distinction must remain.  

[xsparklersx]

Our humanity is what makes all the difference. Just because they have been monstrous enough to massacre people doesn't mean that we should be monstrous in return. Besides, it is so much more efficient to use lethal injections. Less disgusting gore, less violence, quicker (you can only do one at a time with the chair), and less clean up.

I agree with Efstathios. Only the repeat offenders who are beyond help should receive the death penalty. The one-timers have too wide a variety of cases and may yet become productive members of society if they make it through the rehab programs.  

[Der Freischuetz]

xsparklersx

Our humanity is what makes all the difference. Just because they have been monstrous enough to massacre people doesn't mean that we should be monstrous in return. Besides, it is so much more efficient to use lethal injections. Less disgusting gore, less violence, quicker (you can only do one at a time with the chair), and less clean up.

I agree with Efstathios. Only the repeat offenders who are beyond help should receive the death penalty. The one-timers have too wide a variety of cases and may yet become productive members of society if they make it through the rehab programs.

Actually lethal injection isn't all that humane. In theory, the first chemical injected into the person is supposed to relax them enough to the point that they lose consciousness. This doesn't always work. If it doesn't work, the person will have to cope with chemicals wrecking havoc on their inside, which is a horrible way to die. Essentially the most "humane" mehods of execution are ones like firing squad, guillotine and the Russian method of a bullet to the back of the head. These, though messy, ensure a quick death of the condemned. But let's be honest: there is no humane way of killing a person, because in any case, they end up dead. Therefore, worrying about a humane way of killing a person is silly, and I have no idea why people worry about it so much.

One, how long would it take to rehabilitate these offenders? How much easier is it to simply find a working member of society who hasn't commited any crimes and can take their place in the work force? For one, I'm not going to trust a first-time murder at all. The person already proved that they can't be trusted, so why let them live?  

[Efstathios]

I wasn't thinking so much of the work force as the value of human life.
the world is overpopulated, ideally the world's population could be reduced by as much as 2/3 and still have plenty of people to keep things going.
I am opposed to the death penalty in less extreme cases for purely moral nonlogical reasons.

I'm not sure how long rehabilitation lasts, though they should continue seeing a shrink long after their parole has ended. rehabilitation would be state mandated and they would have to pay for it.

Simply because a person is not perfectly trustworthy shouldn't make them unworthy of life.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Der Freischuetz

xsparklersx

Our humanity is what makes all the difference. Just because they have been monstrous enough to massacre people doesn't mean that we should be monstrous in return. Besides, it is so much more efficient to use lethal injections. Less disgusting gore, less violence, quicker (you can only do one at a time with the chair), and less clean up.

I agree with Efstathios. Only the repeat offenders who are beyond help should receive the death penalty. The one-timers have too wide a variety of cases and may yet become productive members of society if they make it through the rehab programs.

Actually lethal injection isn't all that humane. In theory, the first chemical injected into the person is supposed to relax them enough to the point that they lose consciousness. This doesn't always work. If it doesn't work, the person will have to cope with chemicals wrecking havoc on their inside, which is a horrible way to die. Essentially the most "humane" mehods of execution are ones like firing squad, guillotine and the Russian method of a bullet to the back of the head. These, though messy, ensure a quick death of the condemned. But let's be honest: there is no humane way of killing a person, because in any case, they end up dead. Therefore, worrying about a humane way of killing a person is silly, and I have no idea why people worry about it so much.

One, how long would it take to rehabilitate these offenders? How much easier is it to simply find a working member of society who hasn't commited any crimes and can take their place in the work force? For one, I'm not going to trust a first-time murder at all. The person already proved that they can't be trusted, so why let them live?

Once again I almost completely agree Freischütz.

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

Yes, and I mean what about incidents where someone goes on a shooting spree killing 42 people laughing all the way, how could you propose anything LESS than death for such an insidious crime? He knows he did it, he knows he wanted to, and he probably wants to do it again! There is nothing else fair but to kill the b*****d.

42 people would make him a repeat offender, if he went on that long the logical assumption would be that rehablilitation would not be possible and he would deserve nothing other than the death penalty.

NOCTVRNVS

As for forms of capital punishment why are we going so pansy with this stuff? What was wrong with the three-swing beheading, and the hanging? Well actually, the problem with the hanging was that the killer's head came off half the time from such a high drop and a tight noose, which is the primary reason it was eventually stopped. I wonder why you'd want to stop just because of such a minor detail confused

I don't see anything pansy about electrocuting someone. Have you ever gotten a high voltage electric shock? Most people jump from a bigger spark of static electricity.
Swingin's are messy and we're killing the offender because we hold ourselves to a higher moral standard. Sinking to his/her level goes against the very reason the kill is taking place.
We are humane, the killer isn't. That distinction must remain.

Well, when you jump from an electrical shock it is a very low-voltage. A shock as powerful as that of an electric chair is never actually felt because it is a constant current and so powerful that it numbs the entire body. When a body makes contact with a bare electrical wire at a roadside, for instance, they do not actually feel the damage of the shock until they lose contact with the bare wire, which by the way is impossible because the current disables the person's body so that they can not control their muscular system to let go of the wire. This same effect is in the electrical chair, but the current is so strong that the person dies within seconds (despite how it may appear as the current continues to flow through the body keeping every muscle contracted even after death).

While it is nice to think that the reason we have moved on to these modern forms of capital punishment is because they are humane, it is not the case. I see no reason we must show these monsters an ounce of compassion, outside of religious motives anyway -- we aren't killing these people humanely to hold our actions above theirs. Killing such atrocious fiends is entirely justified, because they have intentionally and knowingly taken the lives of many and yet are only sentenced to die but once. None of the effects that their crimes against humanity have had on others applies to their own death. We are simply doing away with what is little more than a plague on humanity; we are not murdering killers to show that killing is wrong. We are killing murderers to show that murder is wrong.  

[Efstathios]

NOCTVRNVS

While it is nice to think that the reason we have moved on to these modern forms of capital punishment is because they are humane, it is not the case. I see no reason we must show these monsters an ounce of compassion, outside of religious motives anyway -- we aren't killing these people humanely to hold our actions above theirs. Killing such atrocious fiends is entirely justified, because they have intentionally and knowingly taken the lives of many and yet are only sentenced to die but once. None of the effects that their crimes against humanity have had on others applies to their own death. We are simply doing away with what is little more than a plague on humanity; we are not murdering killers to show that killing is wrong. We are killing murderers to show that murder is wrong.

I see. I don't think any futher agreement can be achieved between us. on this topic.

You see it as kicking a dog for biting you, I see it as muzzling the same animal. Poor analogy maybe, but I think I made my point.
You see the death penalty as revenge, punishment. I just think the people are too dangerous to be allowed to live, and think that killing them is a mercy, and for the protection of potential future victims, not a punishment.
My viewing it as a mercy is what makes it seem like it should be a humane death. 2 shots to the back of the head ftw.

Oddly I think I would agree with your view on method if it was rapists and not murderers we were talking about. I guess something's just messed up in my head, I think rape is a worse crime than murder.  

[Isho Von Ra]

I am pro capital punishment, it is a effective way of removing the unwanted people from gene pool. With that said there is no current court in the world I would give the death penalty to. The reason for saying this is the politic about it.

The best way to get off a death penalty it to pay for a lawyer, in fact in the USA the main different between people with cases with the death penalty is that one that pay for help get off the hock, while nearly all thought who are sitting on death row did not pay for legal help. The reason is that most department of prosecution around the world are under presser to perform, therefor they steamroll easy cases & not bother with people with a hard defense. & in most cases they don't care if they really it, along as the paperwork say he did it, & the person in question is in legal lock down. they then can put "successfully solve another case" onto there resume, & reap the reward.

This is why I do not trust any court in the world to give a fair trial, therefor they can't hand out the death penalty.  

[Efstathios]

Augh, sadly you're right.

High paying clients always get off, like the Michael Jackson case. Ick.

sad

Not much to be done about it. In another guild we said "robots!" Then someone else pointed out that the programming could be tampered with for the right price.

It's one of those things that just makes me very sad because there's no clear solution.
The only way out would be for people's focus to turn away from material objects so bribes would be impossible. Heh, not gonna happen.