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 Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:46 pm
NOCTVRNVS I never said that Muslims teaching their children to be Muslims is negative whatsoever; but strapping a bomb on them and hitting them with a stick until they agree to blow themselves up is not religion. And nor is contracting diseases from rats' nests. That is just insanity. I said radicals of Islam tell their children only what is convenient to them so that they can get their way any time they play the "Allah wants you to" card (such as when they feel like blowing people up), and that's just an example that goes for false followers of any religion. It isn't the religion that's harmful but the people. As for morality without religion, I don't get it. Why wouldn't you just want to do whatever YOU want to do without worrying about other people? I mean you believe when you die that's it, you get one life to do whatever you want with it, shouldn't you just go out and do whatever's fun for you? Like I mean what's the big picture? You're going to die, everyone else is going to die, the world's gonna end and then what difference does it make what you did in life? No-one was watching you live your life, and writing down the good that you did, no-one who's still gonna be alive in 100 years to tell about it anyway. Selflessness is not logical if you believe there's no benefit in the end, isn't that right? But blowing themselves up for Allah is their religion, why shouldn't they practice freedom of religion? What you percieve of as unhealthy or unethical is part of their religion. There's plenty of things I or someone else might find unethical or unhealthy about your religion. Why should some religions get preference over others? Was the world created by a flying spaghetti monster, a dancing goddesss, a diving muskrat, a schizophrenic god, or natural phenomena? When I was little I learned a few things, if you do the right thing you get punished, if you do the wrong thing you get rewarded, double points if you blame it on someone else. Always do the right thing. I don't think I'll ever be rewarded and I don't care. Being able to face yourself in the mirror, being able to live with yourself, that's reason enough for me. In fact "You know you're doing the right thing when they start shooting at you". I do the right thing because it's right. I've never had any other reason, I never had reason to believe I would recieve anything other than Hell for anything I do. I think that every being on the planet has the right to 3 things, Freedom, Truth, and Love. This is because these are the things I want most myself, so it would be very wrong to prevent other beings from having them.
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:53 pm
Efstathios NOCTVRNVS I never said that Muslims teaching their children to be Muslims is negative whatsoever; but strapping a bomb on them and hitting them with a stick until they agree to blow themselves up is not religion. And nor is contracting diseases from rats' nests. That is just insanity. I said radicals of Islam tell their children only what is convenient to them so that they can get their way any time they play the "Allah wants you to" card (such as when they feel like blowing people up), and that's just an example that goes for false followers of any religion. It isn't the religion that's harmful but the people. As for morality without religion, I don't get it. Why wouldn't you just want to do whatever YOU want to do without worrying about other people? I mean you believe when you die that's it, you get one life to do whatever you want with it, shouldn't you just go out and do whatever's fun for you? Like I mean what's the big picture? You're going to die, everyone else is going to die, the world's gonna end and then what difference does it make what you did in life? No-one was watching you live your life, and writing down the good that you did, no-one who's still gonna be alive in 100 years to tell about it anyway. Selflessness is not logical if you believe there's no benefit in the end, isn't that right? But blowing themselves up for Allah is their religion, why shouldn't they practice freedom of religion? What you percieve of as unhealthy or unethical is part of their religion. There's plenty of things I or someone else might find unethical or unhealthy about your religion. Why should some religions get preference over others? Was the world created by a flying spaghetti monster, a dancing goddesss, a diving muskrat, a schizophrenic god, or natural phenomena? When I was little I learned a few things, if you do the right thing you get punished, if you do the wrong thing you get rewarded, double points if you blame it on someone else. Always do the right thing. I don't think I'll ever be rewarded and I don't care. Being able to face yourself in the mirror, being able to live with yourself, that's reason enough for me. In fact "You know you're doing the right thing when they start shooting at you". I do the right thing because it's right. I've never had any other reason, I never had reason to believe I would recieve anything other than Hell for anything I do. I think that every being on the planet has the right to 3 things, Freedom, Truth, and Love. This is because these are the things I want most myself, so it would be very wrong to prevent other beings from having them. No, blowing themselves up is NOT their religion. And especially not blowing your children up. That is what God would call "taking the name of the LORD in vain". But I support any muslim who would teach his child the fundaments of Islam to help him understand why other muslims are muslims. It's not that I support Islam, but that I support religion as a bringer of hope. I don't really understand the logic behind your living morally. First of all you live by morals that you were taught at a young age; technically your moral code is even your religion. So you are living by the religion your parents taught you whether you like it or not. That's the only reason you consider how your choices affect others. Because you were trained to think that you should feel guilty when you do "bad" things. But logically why would you? In a secular point-of-view everything is going to end sooner or later, and when it does, you will have lived your life and had one single chance to do anything you want. So why would you waste it being nice to others instead of caring only about yourself and making sure you die above everyone else? Die rich, and with a reputation. But no, you are restrained by the feeling that you must do what is "right" to be rewarded with self-satisfaction. This very thing is the BASIS of all religion, so not only does it not make sense for you to live morally, it also doesn't make sense for you to say that being raised on religion is a negative; as you yourself were and you claim that it is how you WISH to live.
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:36 pm
Ooh nice. -claps slowly-
Still doesn't change the fact that indoctrinating kids with anything at a young age almost permanently sells them on it.
What about Satanism? That's as legitimate a religion as any other. What about Wicca? Should a child be raised as a whitch? Or Santeria? Why do people need religion for hope? Does that mean it's just a moral crutch with no grounding in reality? If so, shouldn't children be taught morality first and then given the option of religion when they begin the "search for meaning" phase most enter in their teens?
The difference between morality and religion is doing what is right because it's right or doing what is right because otherwise you'll suffer eternal damnation. Those are the kids that grow up to figure out there's no such thing as Hell and end up exactly as you seem to think I should. I don't believe in guilt or shame, they're useless. I don't think there is any consequence to anything I do as long as I know how not to get caught. The only thing that stops me from doing certain things is that I will not do to someone else something I would not want done to me (unless they make it clear they want it...)
That actually wasn't trained into me, my father and mother both tried hard to get me to do what they wanted with rewards and not do what they didn't want me to do with punishments. My response? SDR party like a rockstar. (You DON'T want to know the sordid details)
I actually developed my version of morality (and am still developing it) based on observation, introspection and lots of good books.
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:49 pm
All of you are really quite amazing debators. I'm pretty sure, though, I can never measure up. smile
I digress, I see the point of the original thread-maker's opinion. It's true with pretty much all religions, not just with Islam or Christianity. Though, it is quite true they may have the most conflicts today- even though they basically have the same moral code and such.
As for myself, I was pretty much raised by my grandmother; she convinced me that god is real and taught me about the Christian/Catholic [I forgot which, I've no need to remember now] religion. She told me of nothing else, besides the other branches of those religions like Methodist and stuff. I'd really no idea about other religions besides that she told me prejudiced views like, "Oh, those silly Muslims, blowing thereselves up!" Well, only a tad more slanderous...
My mum didn't baptize me when I was born for some personal issues; she believes I can choose my own relgion. However, when she left my dad, and I legally lived with my dad, though I stayed with my mum's mum most, my gran convinced me to kind of hate my mum, and dad, because they did not have me baptized when I was born and I then really wanted to become baptized. However, I still wasn't baptized. I'm glad that I wasn't, too, because I was only about seven or eight. I even believed in god so much that I insulted people at my school because they didn't share my views on god and other such matters, as that's what my gran did, too.
Of course, she still says all Muslims and Hindus are crack-pots, hunyaks, sinners, heinous, stupid, and blasphemers.
And, now, I don't believe much of anything, at all. I broke away from my original beliefs, and chose not to be part of any religion. Not even Athiesm, because, regardless of what anyone says, it is a religion now. I base my morals off of observations, my own experiences. I understand that if another person wishes to do something, even if it hurts/betters them, it really doesn't effect me unless I know them and take in consideration their opinions. [For example, abortions.]
[[Note:: I'm just sharing some of my experiences with you.]]
The point is, most do try to pass on their religion and attempt to get their children to conform to what they believe.
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:31 pm
i really do agree with the topic religion does kinda compare to low-balling
because most perants will tell there kids what they believe not "you'll find out later when your older and will not be completly and utterly infuinced by what i say" so well most children will go on believing what they were told my there perants. I was raised jewish but i never got into the whole god exist because we believe in him or because he is just there.I wanted proof and as i now know there was none outher then faith and when i asked them if they had outher proof there was Ofcourse the fall back plan for all religions when the awnser faith doesnt work "The holy Books" every religion has one but the thing is that the "Holy books" were written by man not by some terestrial spirit or the all might lord.
and for lack of proof i am still exploring religions to this day=)
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