About suicide.

[Melancholosophy]

I will have to agree with HoofFoot... you don't really know how miserable a life can be until you've tried it yourself... I know that all pain is relative to where your limits are, and what else you've been through, but some pain and some situations are so bad, that you can't possibly be optimistic about it! Suicide might be considered selfish, but that is only if you leave someone behind who would miss you, and if you had anyone who loved you, I don't think you would even HAVE to commit suicide.
So, suicide as a very last resort to a miserable, lonely and unrepearable life (by ANY means!) won't be selfish at all, because... who would you leave behind to cry at your grave? NOONE!
And besides...as I believe HoofFoot (or someone else, I don't remember) said in one the first posts of this topic, every human being is selfish! It's all about surviving, and if you can't, then you just can't survive...thats the way it is!

But, in contrast to what I just said and to what HoofFoot means (as I understand him), I don't believe an optimistic life has ever hurt anyone, and even though it might seem a bit naive, keeping up good hope is always healthy, even if your world seems like collapsing...

So, if your life is nothing but dirt in the corner of a condemned building, you better make sure you either make some friends fast, or put an end to it all... that's my opinion...  

[TellTaleBlackHeart]

I hear that but every life effects another in someway.  

[Timo Supremo]

is sucide ever REALLY the last option a person has? I would think that with all the people in the world, all the opportunities we have and the choices we can make, there would be a way to escape the pain and suffering of our current circumstances without commiting suicide. There is the argument that people sometimes commit suicide because of physical suffering or ailments. I don't have an answer to this arguement. When people are considering suicide, do they ever try to talk themselves out of it? Do they try to think of alternatives or focus on the one option and dig in deeper to that hole?  

[Melancholosophy]

Timo Supremo

...When people are considering suicide, do they ever try to talk themselves out of it? Do they try to think of alternatives or focus on the one option and dig in deeper to that hole?

Hmm...you might be correct, Timo, that people often focus on that single, most ultimate resolution to their problems, but...even though I've never committed suicide (obviously! >.<) I have once attempted, only to be encountered by some very drunk friends, who just happened to be there, when I was about to jump into the ocean! I don't believe in fate, but I believe I was meant to live on, with my mental and social problems...
That night I believed that by jumping into the cold water I could end this suffering, this evertorturing way of isolating myself from other people... but I couldn't! I could not get myself together to actually jump off that bridge and into the vast waters of stillstand and silence!
Yes, I had other options; yes I did try and think of anything, ANYthing, which might have made a better solution to the problems I faced! Though my 'problems' where minimal to those of many other people... which also made me think of what I was actually about to do: End the life of one lucky guy!
So yes, I agree with you... but I have to reanimate my point: What kind of business are these matters to you? Unless your world would be rocked by that one other person's choice, I don't see why you should even care about whether or not other people commit suicide. Let them decide for themselves, I say!

End of story.

PS. Thus I also believe in the justification of euthanasia.  

[Timo Supremo]

Melancholosophy

Timo Supremo

...When people are considering suicide, do they ever try to talk themselves out of it? Do they try to think of alternatives or focus on the one option and dig in deeper to that hole?

So yes, I agree with you... but I have to reanimate my point: What kind of business are these matters to you? Unless your world would be rocked by that one other person's choice, I don't see why you should even care about whether or not other people commit suicide. Let them decide for themselves, I say!

In my personal, yes religious, beliefs I feel that all people have intrinsic value and infinite potential for positive contribution and personal intellectual growth. We also all have free will, a great power which can never be taken away from any person, it can only be given away. To kill oneself is to take that persons great potential from the world, and to lose their ability to effect anything. I also believe that our lives are a time to learn to control and work within our bodies. Depression is an ailment of the body, not of the spirit. To learn to overcome and control the natural tendancy of these bodies to unhappy thought is a wonderful thing! I know this, I suffer from depression. I count myself blessed that my problems are so mild, while being, on a small degree, able to sympathize with the pain people go through.

So no, I can't force anyone to not be suicidal. But I do care, Melancholosophy.  

[Melancholosophy]

Timo Supremo

In my personal, yes religious, beliefs I feel that all people have intrinsic value and infinite potential for positive contribution and personal intellectual growth. We also all have free will, a great power which can never be taken away from any person, it can only be given away. To kill oneself is to take that persons great potential from the world, and to lose their ability to effect anything. I also believe that our lives are a time to learn to control and work within our bodies. Depression is an ailment of the body, not of the spirit. To learn to overcome and control the natural tendancy of these bodies to unhappy thought is a wonderful thing! I know this, I suffer from depression. I count myself blessed that my problems are so mild, while being, on a small degree, able to sympathize with the pain people go through.

So no, I can't force anyone to not be suicidal. But I do care, Melancholosophy.

Well, then I will have to make an official apology to you, Timo smile
I never meant to attack you or your beliefs, and as a matter of fact I (partly) agree with you on the idea of everyone being born with a certain potential...but if unfortune strikes you in any way, either in the form of social, mental or physiological unluck, are we obliged to take care of eachother no matter what?
I am an agnostic, thus open to the possibility of a God, but I believe so far, that the homo sapiens is merely submissive to its physiological needs, but that we have been given the ability to think and develop, both in bad and good ways, in order to achieve the final result of our struggles. We are animals, and that is a fact. Therefore, we are naturally born with an essential need to socialize, which might be why we feel like helping eachother. Also, we are born selfish, so by helping others we help ourselves in the final event.
I don't believe that we have been put on this earth, this small, simple planet, as an outcarrier of a greater magnificent mission, I partly believe in the determinition of our lives.
I also suffer from a mild depressive state, resulting in heavy moodswings, and though my life is dominated by melancholic moments (thus my name), I still have some times of happiness (when my moodswings reach a maximum, ofc), where my perception of life becomes somewhat of an euforic, naive belief in a positive outcome and potential of my life. Those times are great! And during those times, my problems seem so distant, so oblivious and pathetic!
But like you, in spite of my melancholically predominated everyday, I am still always able to be unselfishly aware of other people's moods, and I am always ready to aid my friends and family in whatever matters may be.

Melancholosophy

PS. But despite all of this discussing, I think we might have some things in common... so PM me, if you like wink (I'm far from as dangerous as my avatar looks like whee It's just a 'wishful image' of myself 3nodding )  

[Timo Supremo]

There's no need for apologies.
I do agree with a lot of things you said. I also believe that humans are kind for selfish purposes. If being kind to others did not give us even a small bit of pleasure, then it would not be selfish. But as things are. . .  

[ObscureEnigma]

Suicide is one of those matters on which I am wishy-washy. Perhaps there was ONE time in which I tried to commit suicide, but I realized that there are other options to make myself happy. Then again, there are worse situations than the ones that I had. If one wants to commit suicide, I can only advise against it because there is so much more out there; life can change in a blink of an eye, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. However, I cannot necessarily actively stop one from committing such an act. It is one's decision what happens with one's life.  

[Nimeton Ei Kukaan]

ObscureEnigma

Suicide is one of those matters on which I am wishy-washy. Perhaps there was ONE time in which I tried to commit suicide, but I realized that there are other options to make myself happy. Then again, there are worse situations than the ones that I had. If one wants to commit suicide, I can only advise against it because there is so much more out there; life can change in a blink of an eye, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. However, I cannot necessarily actively stop one from committing such an act. It is one's decision what happens with one's life.

A wise way to approach suicide and suicidal people.

I have a question for everyone.

Would you help a suicidal person to commit suicide? Why/Why not? Would you try and help the person find another way to get rid of their problems?  

[Timo Supremo]

Would I try to help people? Hmmm. . . Of course, I would like to say yes, I would always try. However, i personally hate getting close to people; and I think that the only way to begin really helping people is to start by being their friend. So, even though I would want to be helpful, I probably wouldn't.  

[truely emo]

Arid Tundra

I think that some people who commit suicide don't really know how good their life is

ok, tell me how good my life is.
no friends, no social life whatsoever, i have to pretend im an alien to get ANYattention at all, i am pretty much invisible to girls i like, i am considered homosexual because i am too shy to talk about my true feelings to girls, my older brother was kicked out of the marines,has gotten maarried to a girl he barely knows, smokes, drinks, and has rebellion issues my 17 yr old sister is pregnant, my dad is a perfectionist, my mom takes things too seriously, my parents are too strict, my little brother is actually homosexual, my grandfather has alzheimers and was recently is a car accident at the age of 86, my grandmother is in a scooter pecause of polio, i am in a poor physical,mental, and emotional state, i have no money, and my only girlfriend dumped me for a fat, inactive, s.o.b. who told her parents that i was supposed to be in 11th grade( when im supposed to be in 7th(currently in 8th)). plus i got kicked out of school for self defence.

if you can find ONEpart of my life that is good, then please tell me.

i firmly believe that for some people(like me), suicide is the only way out. people that try to help, usually make it worse. and trust me, ive come literally inches from suicide. i found the key to my dads gun safe, found a razor blade in the bathroom, and have a large selection of knives in the kitchen.
the human race is extremely selfish. people work their lives away to get money to buy nice things for themselves. then, when they have everything they want, they give, to make themselves feel good. if someone feels there is no way to make them feel better, the logical path is to leave permanently.
i want to comit the least selvish thing EVER and lift the burden of dealing with my sheer annoyingness and lack of common sense  

[Nimeton Ei Kukaan]

Ouch. That sounds really bad. What are you going to do?  

[- symphonic disaster -]

Suicide could not be the ultimate evil, but that's just a different topic. I think the main reason why people are trying to prevent others from commiting suicide is the possibility that they could help them get out of this state of depression. In addition to that everyone, in some point in there life, thinks about killing themselves. Some mean it more seriously while others are just sick of things and its not so deep. If there weren't people who deeply cared for one another and would greatly miss them if they commited suicide, thus they get help for them, we would have a lot more suicides. Feeling compassion, and love is not a selfish thing because you are giving something to someone and in the end its possible that it doesn't even benefit you.

Oh, sorry for it only being one paragraph, i tend to think that way.

If the human race is so selfish:
why would people sacrifice themselves to save another?
jump in front of a bullet?

to truely emo:
I know exactly how it is to have no friends, and to feel like no one in the world cares about you. Since its my junior year in high school its seems almost pointless to make new friends. The thing you failed to miss is you have family. You may not appreciate your parents now but when you're older, trust me, you'll appreciate them a lot more. I know when I was in 8th grade I hated my parents and my brother because they were always fighting. I was going through a lot during that time and I am still frustrated with the fact that they didn't even notice the fact that I was underweight, and depressed.

Just trust me, things will get better just hold on and you'll see. If you gave up now there is so much in life that you might miss, so many opportunities, and so many new experiences. In the end, suicide isn't worth it. (and if you need anyone to talk to PM)

If life was all happyness and joy it would be boring, the reason we have struggles is to become stronger and fight for what we believe in.

 

[Sunatic]

angeliclairs

If the human race is so selfish:
why would people sacrifice themselves to save another?
jump in front of a bullet?

Because they want to avoid the pain of living with the fact of having lost someone or something important to them. Because they might believe that such heroic actions ensure some kind of heaven or good karma after death, and thus they're acting for their own good. If the one in front of the oncoming bullet is their child, sacrificing one's life to save the child is a natural instinct, evolved to keep the species alive at the cost of individual lives. But the good of the species is also the good of the individual - now this goes onto the territory of soul evolution. (If you want further explanation, pm me or HoofFoot.)

No matter what the reason, even the "unselfish" acts are in fact selfish. People are sometimes wrong about what's good for them in the long run and what's harmful, but they always act based on their current knowledge, and their motives are selfish.  

[Quirinia]

Yay! Objectivism!

I wouldn't help someone to commit suicide. There are some decisions we have to make and execute on our own. Not even my paraplegic uncle.

Suicide, to me, is not wrong. I have considered it many times in the past few years, but have not chosen it. Several reasons factored in each time, but recurring ones were the desire to go cleanly, with the funds to cover my funeral. It would be unfair to make my family pay for my ticket out, or clean up the means of my death.

My life is neither hard nor easy. It is, I would say, average to above average. Many of the layers on the pyramid of needs are fulfilled every day.

However, there has been much sadness in my eighteen years. It seems as though each new year brings with it a new, heavier weight for me to bear. It sometimes seems as though I cannot take another step, lest I fall. In these times, suicide beckons most fervently.

One light shines constantly in my life, though, and his name is Andy. With his help, I recovered from my breakdown; I forgave myself for dropping out of uni; I attended my brother's funeral. I have never told him (preferring instead to intone the aforementioned reasons), but his love is what ultimately stayed my hand. I do not wish to know what would happen to me without him.