Religion and/or God

[Snowmaiden616]

Recently I have been questioning my faith and if it is the right one.
Does anyone beleive that there is one perfect religion?
Or per say, Any God at all?
I am Catholic and i am taught to believe that there is a God and He is perfect. But if he is perfect and He wants his people to be happy, Why does he let all this crap go on in the world?  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Well that's a bit of a naive question...

I do hope as a self-professed Christian that you at least try to understand your faith.

First off, remember Adam and Eve. The whole point of that story was so that we could understand that man has rejected God from the beginning of his creation. Adam and Eve indulged in sin, they failed to resist the ONLY temptation that was set before them and broke God's ONE rule. God warned them that the tree was a symbol of man's trust in God, so to break His one rule and eat from that tree would be to reject God obviously. But that's what happened. Man rejected God from the day he was created, so God gave man control over Earthly events, while He controlled the Kingdom of Heaven. God did not "desert" us, He simply respected our wish to be a world without God. So that's what we have -- a world without God. No longer does He change the events that we set in place, because he respects our desire of a life without God.

So by now people always say, "but that's not fair, why would God punish all of humanity just because of something the first man did?"

Well think about it, He doesn't punish us for Adam's actions. Since Adam ate from the forbidden tree and rejected God for the first time, man was severed from his immortality and there became lust and deception -- for we no longer lived in angelic bodies while on Earth. Our flesh, as you know, is very flawed and our minds are weak. Mortal men create mortal children -- that means us. We have the same desires and weaknesses as we have ever since then, and that means we inevitably sin. So is God still punishing us for Adam's doings? No -- we STILL REJECT God. Every day man denounces God and curses His name, you can see that spending but a single minute on the internet or in society. In a world where God is not wanted, God does not show Himself, it's very simple.

So then there's basically one issue remaining on the matter; what about people who DO want God in their lives, and why does God interact with people in parts of the Bible?

Well it's easy. God NEVER changes the will of man. That's the one basic rule that separates us from Him. However that does not mean that God has no effect on our actions and the events that unfold on Earth. Think about it, what did He do when it was time to free the Hebrew slaves from the wrath of the Pharaoh? God chose one of His strongest believers and showed the man what he was to do (although keep in mind he was never FORCED to do it; God chose this man because He knew that he WOULD do it). This man followed God's instruction and, with a lot of help from God, did indeed free the slaves from Egypt. God never reached down and crushed the Pharaoh as He could have, He asked a man to persuade him and when that failed, God used NATURE against evil. This is how God does things while ensuring that all men still have their own will.

So what about those of us who DO want God in our lives? Well maybe now you already realize the answer. We have God in our lives if we truly want. God guides us and indeed protects us, but -- and this is key -- remember that he DOES NOT change the will of men. God can protect us from everything that He controls (as the Bible says, true believers need not fear any manner of beast, or peril of nature, which I can indeed attest to), but if it is a man's desire to kill another, that can not be changed by God. God can help US to change it, and He often does, but He will not change it Himself (I'm saying God "can" not change these things, please note that He actually CAN if He wants to, but respects our freedom). Don't think that God does not watch over us, nor protect us, because indeed He does, every moment of our lives. But, understand, MAN controls man. God controls everything else.

I hope that helps.  

[Snowmaiden616]

But then, if God controls everything else, why does he not simply control us. MAKE us follow him, MAKE us live in peace, MAKE us have a perfect utopia? And if indeed God did make us in his image then why are there so many flaws?

(PS it was Eve who at the apple first) And on that basis, if God controls everythign, such as the snake that tempted Eve, was he setting us up to kick us out of Eden?  

[Sin-of-Malice]

God...intresting concept, that. Do I think there's a god? Well yea, possibly...I admit there are some things out there that I can't explain. But I can't believe it's anything like Catholics and Christians seem to think. Order, law, punishment and some kind of "love"? No...I just can't. There's too much that's been twisted over the years. Too much depth...Life isn't just "black and white". People...souls; it's more complicated...then that. I don't think we should "have" to love someone or go to hell for not...it's not...not right.

And trust me; my younger sibling and I have grown up in a Christian community...so at least I know what I'm talking about ><;  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Snowmaiden616

But then, if God controls everything else, why does he not simply control us. MAKE us follow him, MAKE us live in peace, MAKE us have a perfect utopia? And if indeed God did make us in his image then why are there so many flaws?

(PS it was Eve who at the apple first) And on that basis, if God controls everythign, such as the snake that tempted Eve, was he setting us up to kick us out of Eden?

Well I just answered that...

Another thing you apparently don't understand is that it wasn't a "serpent" who tempted the first people into betraying God. It was THE Serpent -- the antithesis of God, Satan, the fallen angel... God, giving free will to each of His creations, was betrayed by the angel Lucifer and thus Lucifer -- later known as Satan -- was banished from the paradise of Heaven. Just as God directed Moses to do good, Satan directed a serpent to do evil.  

[Snowmaiden616]

NOCTVRNVS

Snowmaiden616

But then, if God controls everything else, why does he not simply control us. MAKE us follow him, MAKE us live in peace, MAKE us have a perfect utopia? And if indeed God did make us in his image then why are there so many flaws?

(PS it was Eve who at the apple first) And on that basis, if God controls everythign, such as the snake that tempted Eve, was he setting us up to kick us out of Eden?

Well I just answered that...

Another thing you apparently don't understand is that it wasn't a "serpent" who tempted the first people into betraying God. It was THE Serpent -- the antithesis of God, Satan, the fallen angel... God, giving free will to each of His creations, was betrayed by the angel Lucifer and thus Lucifer -- later known as Satan -- was banished from the paradise of Heaven. Just as God directed Moses to do good, Satan directed a serpent to do evil.

I must say tushe on that matter. So your theory is that the Satan disqused himself as a serpent to gain access to the Garden of Eden. That seem liable.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Snowmaiden616

NOCTVRNVS

Snowmaiden616

But then, if God controls everything else, why does he not simply control us. MAKE us follow him, MAKE us live in peace, MAKE us have a perfect utopia? And if indeed God did make us in his image then why are there so many flaws?

(PS it was Eve who at the apple first) And on that basis, if God controls everythign, such as the snake that tempted Eve, was he setting us up to kick us out of Eden?

Well I just answered that...

Another thing you apparently don't understand is that it wasn't a "serpent" who tempted the first people into betraying God. It was THE Serpent -- the antithesis of God, Satan, the fallen angel... God, giving free will to each of His creations, was betrayed by the angel Lucifer and thus Lucifer -- later known as Satan -- was banished from the paradise of Heaven. Just as God directed Moses to do good, Satan directed a serpent to do evil.

I must say tushe on that matter. So your theory is that the Satan disqused himself as a serpent to gain access to the Garden of Eden. That seem liable.

Yes... my theory and the rest of the Christians'...

Also do keep in mind God never said we were supposed to ENJOY being on Earth. I mean isn't that the whole point? Making the best of things in a world that's very unpleasant? Otherwise who would give a rat's a** about the afterlife...


PS: a tush is a butt  

[Efstathios]

There's a lot of really interesting thing in Christianity.

Like pre-destination, which says that since God is both all-powerful and all-knowing he must not only know who's going to Hell, but has also willed it.
See, if all the power in the universe is wielded by God, then humans don't have any, thus in order for humans to have free will, they must have power over their individual destinies, meaning there is a power that God doesn't have. Twisted, eh?

There's actually a simple answer to this that fits Christianity just fine, that is everyone's going to Heaven. This only works if you believe in the standard binary afterlife, no one wants to be in Hell and God gives people what they want. One of the gospels (yeah yeah yeah, one that isn't in your standard bible) Actually says that the people in Heaven will be given the choice as to whether or not sinners remain in Hell, and being pure of heart, they naturally wouldn't even damn their own murderer to Hell.

I like the theory of a nonbinary afterlife though, and you won't usually find this in christianity, but I found a definition for a Christian non-binary afterlife, it defines Heaven as nearness to God and Hell as distance from God. This one doesn't fit the Bible as well though, so it's not embraced by stricter cults of Christianity. C.S. Lewis has a masterful combination of both theories, I really reccomend it The Great Divorce It's about the divorce of Heaven and Hell.

Christianity is interesting enough that even if you don't believe it, it's a fun thing to learn about. You could be an agnostic until you've decided (agnostics just don't know, maybe there is a God, maybe not)
Atheists believe there isn't a God and Deists believe there is a God, but they reject revealed religion.

I'm agnostic, as far as I know there may very well be a God, but I really think it's more complex than that, more complex than anyone can comprehend while limited by a physical brain.

There is no perfect religion, everyone just finds one that fits them, a lot of people like Methodists ( I like them too) if you have a Methodist friend tag along to Bible study and see if you can learn anything there.

And I still really reccomend C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce.
For those that choose Hell were always in Hell, even back on Earth, and those that choose Heaven, were always in Heaven.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

There's a lot of really interesting thing in Christianity.

Like pre-destination, which says that since God is both all-powerful and all-knowing he must not only know who's going to Hell, but has also willed it.
See, if all the power in the universe is wielded by God, then humans don't have any, thus in order for humans to have free will, they must have power over their individual destinies, meaning there is a power that God doesn't have.

WOW, do people around here like to overthink stuff or what? The concept is not at all complex. Yes, God knows who is going to Heaven and who to Hell -- in fact this is already known even before the person's soul is imbued into the Earthly flesh -- but how does that subtract from our ultimate freedom? It doesn't! WE choose our destiny, only WE decide where we will end up when it is time for our spirits to be reclaimed; God does not tamper with our destiny, He just KNOWS it.

Okay, I KNOW there is going to be an orange crayon in this box of 96 crayons before I even open it (let's assume), but this is not WHY there is going to be an orange crayon in the box. It would be there even if I DIDN'T know it was going to be. I KNOW it's going to be there because that's the only possibility, who's going to put 96 crayons in a box and leave out orange for Christ's sake? What kind of insane piece of s**t would do that? Get a kid all excited to draw a rainbow with cats on it and then he realizes there's no orange crayon, that's probably exactly what you wanted, isn't it you sick a*****e? But you know I'm talking about MAN and CRAYONS, not GOD and SOULS. I mean God could not only guess what colours are gonna be in a box of crayons, He could probably colour with them without even actually touching them. Plus, well, okay, really a better example yet would have been the creator of the crayons knowing that there's gonna be an orange crayon in the box before He opens it. God creates the souls, He knows its destiny before it is even a person, God counts His eggs before they hatch and you know He pulls it off well. Bottom line -- God can KNOW what is to become of us without actually CHANGING what becomes of us.  

[alcoholandbandages]

Snowmaiden616

Recently I have been questioning my faith and if it is the right one.
Does anyone beleive that there is one perfect religion?
Or per say, Any God at all?
I am Catholic and i am taught to believe that there is a God and He is perfect. But if he is perfect and He wants his people to be happy, Why does he let all this crap go on in the world?

Hey.. =) I'm a Catholic too, and I was actually wondering the same thing for a while. I read up, and while there are logical explanations that could prove there's a god, it all really comes down to faith. You can't just put God under a microscope, and then *poof* you have proof God exists.

I think in the end, religion boils down to faith. As some random person I can't remember once put it, 'To those who believe, no explanation is necessary, to those who do not, no explanation is possible.'

It's not very helpful, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.  

[Efstathios]

NOCTVRNVS

Efstathios

There's a lot of really interesting thing in Christianity.

Like pre-destination, which says that since God is both all-powerful and all-knowing he must not only know who's going to Hell, but has also willed it.
See, if all the power in the universe is wielded by God, then humans don't have any, thus in order for humans to have free will, they must have power over their individual destinies, meaning there is a power that God doesn't have.

WOW, do people around here like to overthink stuff or what? The concept is not at all complex. Yes, God knows who is going to Heaven and who to Hell -- in fact this is already known even before the person's soul is imbued into the Earthly flesh -- but how does that subtract from our ultimate freedom? It doesn't! WE choose our destiny, only WE decide where we will end up when it is time for our spirits to be reclaimed; God does not tamper with our destiny, He just KNOWS it.

Okay, I KNOW there is going to be an orange crayon in this box of 96 crayons before I even open it (let's assume), but this is not WHY there is going to be an orange crayon in the box. It would be there even if I DIDN'T know it was going to be. I KNOW it's going to be there because that's the only possibility, who's going to put 96 crayons in a box and leave out orange for Christ's sake? What kind of insane piece of s**t would do that? Get a kid all excited to draw a rainbow with cats on it and then he realizes there's no orange crayon, that's probably exactly what you wanted, isn't it you sick a*****e? But you know I'm talking about MAN and CRAYONS, not GOD and SOULS. I mean God could not only guess what colours are gonna be in a box of crayons, He could probably colour with them without even actually touching them. Plus, well, okay, really a better example yet would have been the creator of the crayons knowing that there's gonna be an orange crayon in the box before He opens it. God creates the souls, He knows its destiny before it is even a person, God counts His eggs before they hatch and you know He pulls it off well. Bottom line -- God can KNOW what is to become of us without actually CHANGING what becomes of us.

I wasn't argueing that that was right, just that it was a funny thought. Lighten up ^_^

Apparently God doesn't know everything though, he was all saddened by the wickedness in the world when just a couple thousand years ago he thought it was all good. I don't think he knew he was gonna have to scrap nearly the whole project, or he wouldn't have thrown such a fit then been all "I'm so sorry! I'll never do it again!" Does he sound like a petulant child or what in the OT, I'm glad he grew up a bit by the time we got to the latter days, aren't you? I mean sheesh, he was quite mean and sadistict even to his followers back then.
"Kill your only child" "Hah! just checking"

Seriously, what a B.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

Efstathios

There's a lot of really interesting thing in Christianity.

Like pre-destination, which says that since God is both all-powerful and all-knowing he must not only know who's going to Hell, but has also willed it.
See, if all the power in the universe is wielded by God, then humans don't have any, thus in order for humans to have free will, they must have power over their individual destinies, meaning there is a power that God doesn't have.

WOW, do people around here like to overthink stuff or what? The concept is not at all complex. Yes, God knows who is going to Heaven and who to Hell -- in fact this is already known even before the person's soul is imbued into the Earthly flesh -- but how does that subtract from our ultimate freedom? It doesn't! WE choose our destiny, only WE decide where we will end up when it is time for our spirits to be reclaimed; God does not tamper with our destiny, He just KNOWS it.

Okay, I KNOW there is going to be an orange crayon in this box of 96 crayons before I even open it (let's assume), but this is not WHY there is going to be an orange crayon in the box. It would be there even if I DIDN'T know it was going to be. I KNOW it's going to be there because that's the only possibility, who's going to put 96 crayons in a box and leave out orange for Christ's sake? What kind of insane piece of s**t would do that? Get a kid all excited to draw a rainbow with cats on it and then he realizes there's no orange crayon, that's probably exactly what you wanted, isn't it you sick a*****e? But you know I'm talking about MAN and CRAYONS, not GOD and SOULS. I mean God could not only guess what colours are gonna be in a box of crayons, He could probably colour with them without even actually touching them. Plus, well, okay, really a better example yet would have been the creator of the crayons knowing that there's gonna be an orange crayon in the box before He opens it. God creates the souls, He knows its destiny before it is even a person, God counts His eggs before they hatch and you know He pulls it off well. Bottom line -- God can KNOW what is to become of us without actually CHANGING what becomes of us.

I wasn't argueing that that was right, just that it was a funny thought. Lighten up ^_^

Apparently God doesn't know everything though, he was all saddened by the wickedness in the world when just a couple thousand years ago he thought it was all good. I don't think he knew he was gonna have to scrap nearly the whole project, or he wouldn't have thrown such a fit then been all "I'm so sorry! I'll never do it again!" Does he sound like a petulant child or what in the OT, I'm glad he grew up a bit by the time we got to the latter days, aren't you? I mean sheesh, he was quite mean and sadistict even to his followers back then.
"Kill your only child" "Hah! just checking"

Seriously, what a B.

O okay surprised

But... that WAS lightened up...

as for what you just said, well, I don't know why you would think God didn't see that coming. I mean it was obvious when God's will was violated at the very beginning of man that we weren't gonna be getting along too well from then on.

Mean and sadistic though? Meh, He's GOD, He can do whatever He wants! It's like when people question the Bible saying, "why would God want us to follow a rule like THAT," but I mean who says there's human logic behind it? We're here to prove that we will live in God's trust, so if He wants a loaf of salami we had better get a damn slab o' meat.  

[Efstathios]

NOCTVRNVS

O okay surprised

But... that WAS lightened up...

as for what you just said, well, I don't know why you would think God didn't see that coming. I mean it was obvious when God's will was violated at the very beginning of man that we weren't gonna be getting along too well from then on.

Mean and sadistic though? Meh, He's GOD, He can do whatever He wants! It's like when people question the Bible saying, "why would God want us to follow a rule like THAT," but I mean who says there's human logic behind it? We're here to prove that we will live in God's trust, so if He wants a loaf of salami we had better get a damn slab o' meat.

It's very sad, isn't it.
I don't have any problem with real Christians, it's the ones that think they can pick and choose from the Old Testament to justify things they're doing as Christians. They bother me, they're not even supposed to be still using that book, it's a mere collection of legends as far as anyone can be sure. There's more proof for the NT.

Oh yeah! To the original poster, check out Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ, it's a good source if you want to stay Christian. If you don't I can get you sources debunking everything in that book, if you like.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

O okay surprised

But... that WAS lightened up...

as for what you just said, well, I don't know why you would think God didn't see that coming. I mean it was obvious when God's will was violated at the very beginning of man that we weren't gonna be getting along too well from then on.

Mean and sadistic though? Meh, He's GOD, He can do whatever He wants! It's like when people question the Bible saying, "why would God want us to follow a rule like THAT," but I mean who says there's human logic behind it? We're here to prove that we will live in God's trust, so if He wants a loaf of salami we had better get a damn slab o' meat.

It's very sad, isn't it.
I don't have any problem with real Christians, it's the ones that think they can pick and choose from the Old Testament to justify things they're doing as Christians. They bother me, they're not even supposed to be still using that book, it's a mere collection of legends as far as anyone can be sure. There's more proof for the NT.

Oh yeah! To the original poster, check out Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ, it's a good source if you want to stay Christian. If you don't I can get you sources debunking everything in that book, if you like.

O yeah, you mean the Jewstians. The ones that ironically don't like Jews because they're Jews and they "rejected Christ" yet for some reason their religion comes from the same book and the same set of laws. Like how God was "serious" about the fags but "not serious" about food laws, inexplicably.  

[Efstathios]

I inexplicably adore homosexuals and follow Jewish food laws.

Then again I rarely claim to be Christian.