Giuliani, Hillary, Obama and the Weather

[Kisa_Hiroshi]

Okay, I figure with this being a debate thread and all we could talk about the upcoming US presidential election. Giuliani is in the republican, Hillary is winning Democratic right now but Obama is gaining popularity, and the main topic of debate this time around... global warming... so tell me your thoughts and who you want to win, and sorry if I've misspelled anything.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

GIULIANI ALL THE WAY, this man has the definite credentials. If not Giuliani then at least a Republican.

Also, global warming... LOL... no such thing. It was almost 20 degrees C below 0 all week, colder than usual for Southern Ontario at this time.  

[Efstathios]

I almost want Obama to become president just because this whole white supremacy thing needs to die. Politically I would prefer Hillary, but I'm not completely familiar with Obama's politics so I'm not entirely certain which I would prefer to win. I'm not old enough to vote yet though, but I do intend to become more familiar with the candidates to better inform those who can vote, but are too lazy to do their own research.

Minor note, global warming is now an outdated term. As NOCTVRNVS pointed out, some places are getting colder. It is now refered to as climate change. ALL the science and nearly all the scientists (ALL scientists without political agendas) agree that is a fact and it will soon be too late to make much difference.  

[Kisa_Hiroshi]

Well, even though I did this for everyone's view, I have to add my two points in because I really didn't want people yelling at me in the first post, I am not old enough to vote yet either, but by 2008 I will be, and this is my point of veiw, I really like Obama right now, some part of his background- his mother was a wite woman from Kansas and his father was a collage transfer student from Africa- I really am starting to like his political veiws, and his opening speach for declaring his nomination was perfect; "I may not have studied the ideals of washington, but I have been there long enough to know they must be changed" he plans to set up more reforms for the educational system that will actually work, and is discussing ways that could bring our troops home from Iraq by March of his first trem, and also desiding to go back to Afganistan, but the best thing about him is that he doesn't mind crossing party lines to get things done.
I'm democratic through and through, and if obama doesn't get it I'm leaning towards Hillary, but I really can't say for sure because Giuliani hasn't been too forthcomming in what he plans to do as president and I do respect him for helping New York through 9/11.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

I almost want Obama to become president just because this whole white supremacy thing needs to die. Politically I would prefer Hillary, but I'm not completely familiar with Obama's politics so I'm not entirely certain which I would prefer to win. I'm not old enough to vote yet though, but I do intend to become more familiar with the candidates to better inform those who can vote, but are too lazy to do their own research.

Minor note, global warming is now an outdated term. As NOCTVRNVS pointed out, some places are getting colder. It is now refered to as climate change. ALL the science and nearly all the scientists (ALL scientists without political agendas) agree that is a fact and it will soon be too late to make much difference.

LOL, so you want Obama to win simply because he's black? Talk about racist... and white supremacy will never die no matter who our president is, but I'm sure more and more rights will be taken away in an attempts to defeat racialism. People always talk about the "witch hunt", and "McCarthyism", when communists were persecuted by the government. Now it is no different, only it is the opposite of communists who are being persecuted, and no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

Although I agree on the subject of "global warming". Just like every other new doctrine society is fed it is nothing but a fearmongering money-grab. Just like the assault rifle ban, the Possession and Acquisition License renewal, SARS, West Nile... all money-grabs that we fall for.  

[Efstathios]

NOCTVRNVS

LOL, so you want Obama to win simply because he's black? Talk about racist... and white supremacy will never die no matter who our president is, but I'm sure more and more rights will be taken away in an attempts to defeat racialism. People always talk about the "witch hunt", and "McCarthyism", when communists were persecuted by the government. Now it is no different, only it is the opposite of communists who are being persecuted, and no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

Nah, I'm just tired of looking in history books and seeing pages of old white guys, that was all I meant with that statement. I went on to talk more about politics. The more I hear about Obama the more I like him. I am an objectivist, I believe that everyone should be free and equal. I am simultianeously the opposite of bureaucrats and communists. People need to realize that their attempts to defeat inequalities only reverse it.

NOCTVRNVS

Although I agree on the subject of "global warming". Just like every other new doctrine society is fed it is nothing but a fearmongering money-grab. Just like the assault rifle ban, the Possession and Acquisition License renewal, SARS, West Nile... all money-grabs that we fall for.

I merely said the term was outdated. Climate change is real, though I agree completely on the other issues you listed. Except the Possession and Acquisition License renewel, because I am not familiar with it.  

[bronzeyaak]

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

LOL, so you want Obama to win simply because he's black? Talk about racist... and white supremacy will never die no matter who our president is, but I'm sure more and more rights will be taken away in an attempts to defeat racialism. People always talk about the "witch hunt", and "McCarthyism", when communists were persecuted by the government. Now it is no different, only it is the opposite of communists who are being persecuted, and no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

Nah, I'm just tired of looking in history books and seeing pages of old white guys, that was all I meant with that statement. I went on to talk more about politics. The more I hear about Obama the more I like him. I am an objectivist, I believe that everyone should be free and equal. I am simultianeously the opposite of bureaucrats and communists. People need to realize that their attempts to defeat inequalities only reverse it.

NOCTVRNVS

Although I agree on the subject of "global warming". Just like every other new doctrine society is fed it is nothing but a fearmongering money-grab. Just like the assault rifle ban, the Possession and Acquisition License renewal, SARS, West Nile... all money-grabs that we fall for.

I merely said the term was outdated. Climate change is real, though I agree completely on the other issues you listed. Except the Possession and Acquisition License renewel, because I am not familiar with it.

Now I am usually the first to jump on the equal opportunity band wagon, but Obama does not have a lick of experience when dealing with government. He is intelligent, certainly as intelligent as you need to be to run for office, but I can not in good conscience vote for some one because he is the new hot topic of the day. In fact i will not even consider voting for any of these people, because it is much to early and not everyone who is going to be apart of it have joined, only the spotlight grabbers who want to win on name alone, thinking most Americans wont look behind the blinding neon lights to see who is really pulling the strings.  

[Efstathios]

bronzeyaak

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

LOL, so you want Obama to win simply because he's black? Talk about racist... and white supremacy will never die no matter who our president is, but I'm sure more and more rights will be taken away in an attempts to defeat racialism. People always talk about the "witch hunt", and "McCarthyism", when communists were persecuted by the government. Now it is no different, only it is the opposite of communists who are being persecuted, and no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

Nah, I'm just tired of looking in history books and seeing pages of old white guys, that was all I meant with that statement. I went on to talk more about politics. The more I hear about Obama the more I like him. I am an objectivist, I believe that everyone should be free and equal. I am simultianeously the opposite of bureaucrats and communists. People need to realize that their attempts to defeat inequalities only reverse it.

NOCTVRNVS

Although I agree on the subject of "global warming". Just like every other new doctrine society is fed it is nothing but a fearmongering money-grab. Just like the assault rifle ban, the Possession and Acquisition License renewal, SARS, West Nile... all money-grabs that we fall for.

I merely said the term was outdated. Climate change is real, though I agree completely on the other issues you listed. Except the Possession and Acquisition License renewel, because I am not familiar with it.

Now I am usually the first to jump on the equal opportunity band wagon, but Obama does not have a lick of experience when dealing with government. He is intelligent, certainly as intelligent as you need to be to run for office, but I can not in good conscience vote for some one because he is the new hot topic of the day. In fact i will not even consider voting for any of these people, because it is much to early and not everyone who is going to be apart of it have joined, only the spotlight grabbers who want to win on name alone, thinking most Americans wont look behind the blinding neon lights to see who is really pulling the strings.

>.< good points. I'm not even old enough to vote yet, but I'm just a little terrified that the republican party will take this one, they have a habit of not really caring who was voted for anyway. If someone better steps forward before the elections, I'll just be sad. I'll want them to win and know that they won't.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

LOL, so you want Obama to win simply because he's black? Talk about racist... and white supremacy will never die no matter who our president is, but I'm sure more and more rights will be taken away in an attempts to defeat racialism. People always talk about the "witch hunt", and "McCarthyism", when communists were persecuted by the government. Now it is no different, only it is the opposite of communists who are being persecuted, and no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

Nah, I'm just tired of looking in history books and seeing pages of old white guys, that was all I meant with that statement. I went on to talk more about politics. The more I hear about Obama the more I like him. I am an objectivist, I believe that everyone should be free and equal. I am simultianeously the opposite of bureaucrats and communists. People need to realize that their attempts to defeat inequalities only reverse it.

NOCTVRNVS

Although I agree on the subject of "global warming". Just like every other new doctrine society is fed it is nothing but a fearmongering money-grab. Just like the assault rifle ban, the Possession and Acquisition License renewal, SARS, West Nile... all money-grabs that we fall for.

I merely said the term was outdated. Climate change is real, though I agree completely on the other issues you listed. Except the Possession and Acquisition License renewel, because I am not familiar with it.

Once again I am going to agree. Some people think that equality is acheived through exclusive advantages -- which would in fact describe INequalities. In relation to what you said specifically, for example, a communist economy only appeals to the poor and the lazy because they are on the lower branches of society. It would hardly be acheiving equality, to simply take money from those who have rightly earned it and give it away to those who haven't.

Sure, climate change is real, but I really don't believe it has much to do with throwing cardboard on the ground. I mean for all we know the world's climates could just be returning to NORMAL after an extended period of deviation... not that I am interested in or knowledgeable about the issue.

The PAL renewal system was introduced only in Canada in 1991, which suddenly meant that everyone who owns firearms must re-take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course every five years -- and pay the registration fee every time. Of course anyone who isn't totally ignorant can easily see that this is completely unnecessary and just another disguised tax (Harper is considering the bill's removal now, finally). I mean do you FORGET how to use a gun within five years of taking a test? confused  

[Efstathios]

NOCTVRNVS

Once again I am going to agree. Some people think that equality is acheived through exclusive advantages -- which would in fact describe INequalities. In relation to what you said specifically, for example, a communist economy only appeals to the poor and the lazy because they are on the lower branches of society. It would hardly be acheiving equality, to simply take money from those who have rightly earned it and give it away to those who haven't.

Sure, climate change is real, but I really don't believe it has much to do with throwing cardboard on the ground. I mean for all we know the world's climates could just be returning to NORMAL after an extended period of deviation... not that I am interested in or knowledgeable about the issue.

The PAL renewal system was introduced only in Canada in 1991, which suddenly meant that everyone who owns firearms must re-take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course every five years -- and pay the registration fee every time. Of course anyone who isn't totally ignorant can easily see that this is completely unnecessary and just another disguised tax (Harper is considering the bill's removal now, finally). I mean do you FORGET how to use a gun within five years of taking a test? confused

I think everything you've said here has been accurate. At the least, I agree with you.

It's just that on the topic of climate change, even if it was normal it is providing an impetus for people to take better care of the planet. I think, I don't really care if it's real or not as long as it means more people recycling and more searching for better, cleaner, more efficient, and renewable alternatives to fossil fuels.
Pollution is inargueably real, and many of the same solutions and precautions apply to both.
This is one of the things I have against the republican party, Bush pulled out of the Kyoto argeement.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

Once again I am going to agree. Some people think that equality is acheived through exclusive advantages -- which would in fact describe INequalities. In relation to what you said specifically, for example, a communist economy only appeals to the poor and the lazy because they are on the lower branches of society. It would hardly be acheiving equality, to simply take money from those who have rightly earned it and give it away to those who haven't.

Sure, climate change is real, but I really don't believe it has much to do with throwing cardboard on the ground. I mean for all we know the world's climates could just be returning to NORMAL after an extended period of deviation... not that I am interested in or knowledgeable about the issue.

The PAL renewal system was introduced only in Canada in 1991, which suddenly meant that everyone who owns firearms must re-take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course every five years -- and pay the registration fee every time. Of course anyone who isn't totally ignorant can easily see that this is completely unnecessary and just another disguised tax (Harper is considering the bill's removal now, finally). I mean do you FORGET how to use a gun within five years of taking a test? confused

I think everything you've said here has been accurate. At the least, I agree with you.

It's just that on the topic of climate change, even if it was normal it is providing an impetus for people to take better care of the planet. I think, I don't really care if it's real or not as long as it means more people recycling and more searching for better, cleaner, more efficient, and renewable alternatives to fossil fuels.
Pollution is inargueably real, and many of the same solutions and precautions apply to both.
This is one of the things I have against the republican party, Bush pulled out of the Kyoto argeement.

Yes, on the grounds that it is unattainable and unrealistic, which it is. The United States CAN NOT meet the demands of the Kyoto accord, it is impossible for North America to cut back so much so quickly. He didn't sign it because he couldn't do it.  

[Efstathios]

Do you have a source for that? I hadn't heard that before.

Assuming you are correct (I have no reason to believe you aren't, you're a strong debater), the republican party still has a lot of strong ties to oil and a lot to lose if alternative fuels become more commonplace. I have no reason to believe that they will do anything good for the environment if another of their number takes the presidency, though of course I still need to learn more about Giuliani and his political past before I would make such a judgement in a voting booth.
I oppose bureaucracy and big business, but that may just be my ideals and not a great way to run a country. Then again, U.S. and other countries were built on ideals, theoretically.

Too many conspiracy theories are assaulting my brain right now, urgh..darn Umberto Eco.  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

Do you have a source for that? I hadn't heard that before.

Assuming you are correct (I have no reason to believe you aren't, you're a strong debater), the republican party still has a lot of strong ties to oil and a lot to lose if alternative fuels become more commonplace. I have no reason to believe that they will do anything good for the environment if another of their number takes the presidency, though of course I still need to learn more about Giuliani and his political past before I would make such a judgement in a voting booth.
I oppose bureaucracy and big business, but that may just be my ideals and not a great way to run a country. Then again, U.S. and other countries were built on ideals, theoretically.

Too many conspiracy theories are assaulting my brain right now, urgh..darn Umberto Eco.

Indeed!! Haha, thanks for the compliment -- but really, it wasn't just my observation, President George W. Bush indeed did state that the Kyoto protocol was technically impossible for the United States to meet, when asked why he refused to sign. No, I can't provide you with a quote for that, sorry. But it's not really that important since facts, and not quotes, are the path to answers.

I can't think of a way to force such a cutback on emissions before whatever due-date they've given the country (your country, that is), can you? Not all corporations across the United States can afford these cutbacks in the short term -- they involve a lot of expensive upgrades -- and I can't imagine the state funding these upgrades either, not realistically anyway. For other countries Kyoto is a great scheme, and some countries already met the emission standards of the protocol anyway, but for what is probably the world's leading industrial nation? Easier said than done...

If you ask me Mr Bush is a pretty realistic man who bases decisions on the reality of things, instead of the fantastic reach-for-the-stars dream that most Americans like to think is within reach.

I don't know much about the subject in all honesty, the environment has always been a concern of mine and I protect it as my God-given land to protect and honour, but this "global warming" is just not one of my worries.

(Plus let's not forget it is mentioned in the Bible that the Earth will return to its ideal state -- presumably including a more equalized climate -- in preparation for Christ's return. But that's kind of a different discussion)  

[Efstathios]

NOCTVRNVS

Indeed!! Haha, thanks for the compliment -- but really, it wasn't just my observation, President George W. Bush indeed did state that the Kyoto protocol was technically impossible for the United States to meet, when asked why he refused to sign. No, I can't provide you with a quote for that, sorry. But it's not really that important since facts, and not quotes, are the path to answers.

I can't think of a way to force such a cutback on emissions before whatever due-date they've given the country (your country, that is), can you? Not all corporations across the United States can afford these cutbacks in the short term -- they involve a lot of expensive upgrades -- and I can't imagine the state funding these upgrades either, not realistically anyway. For other countries Kyoto is a great scheme, and some countries already met the emission standards of the protocol anyway, but for what is probably the world's leading industrial nation? Easier said than done...

If you ask me Mr Bush is a pretty realistic man who bases decisions on the reality of things, instead of the fantastic reach-for-the-stars dream that most Americans like to think is within reach.

I don't know much about the subject in all honesty, the environment has always been a concern of mine and I protect it as my God-given land to protect and honour, but this "global warming" is just not one of my worries.

(Plus let's not forget it is mentioned in the Bible that the Earth will return to its ideal state -- presumably including a more equalized climate -- in preparation for Christ's return. But that's kind of a different discussion)

Actually the thing now is, I can't remember the exact term, basically pollution credits, for how much pollution can be spewed into the air. Many companies have already made the upgrades and plan to sell their extra credits to companies that have not. It's more complex than that, but I see it as pretty dumb. The companies that made the upgrades early should get some sort of reward or recognition for doing so, but not then just shift those CFCs somewhere else. The companies buying them should use that mony for the upgrades rather than buying permission to put more junk in the air.
Based on that I think that big business could have taken a smaller profit margin for a little while and kept the kyoto argeement. However, I'm not incredibly well-informed on this topic either and could be mistaken.

I'm with you on taking care of the Earth though. Whether you view it as heavenly father's gift or mother Earth, it is our duty to care for her.

(Also on that note, wasn't the antichrist supposed to come first? That's a frightening though for those that will believe it.)  

[NOCTVRNVS]

Efstathios

NOCTVRNVS

Indeed!! Haha, thanks for the compliment -- but really, it wasn't just my observation, President George W. Bush indeed did state that the Kyoto protocol was technically impossible for the United States to meet, when asked why he refused to sign. No, I can't provide you with a quote for that, sorry. But it's not really that important since facts, and not quotes, are the path to answers.

I can't think of a way to force such a cutback on emissions before whatever due-date they've given the country (your country, that is), can you? Not all corporations across the United States can afford these cutbacks in the short term -- they involve a lot of expensive upgrades -- and I can't imagine the state funding these upgrades either, not realistically anyway. For other countries Kyoto is a great scheme, and some countries already met the emission standards of the protocol anyway, but for what is probably the world's leading industrial nation? Easier said than done...

If you ask me Mr Bush is a pretty realistic man who bases decisions on the reality of things, instead of the fantastic reach-for-the-stars dream that most Americans like to think is within reach.

I don't know much about the subject in all honesty, the environment has always been a concern of mine and I protect it as my God-given land to protect and honour, but this "global warming" is just not one of my worries.

(Plus let's not forget it is mentioned in the Bible that the Earth will return to its ideal state -- presumably including a more equalized climate -- in preparation for Christ's return. But that's kind of a different discussion)

Actually the thing now is, I can't remember the exact term, basically pollution credits, for how much pollution can be spewed into the air. Many companies have already made the upgrades and plan to sell their extra credits to companies that have not. It's more complex than that, but I see it as pretty dumb. The companies that made the upgrades early should get some sort of reward or recognition for doing so, but not then just shift those CFCs somewhere else. The companies buying them should use that mony for the upgrades rather than buying permission to put more junk in the air.
Based on that I think that big business could have taken a smaller profit margin for a little while and kept the kyoto argeement. However, I'm not incredibly well-informed on this topic either and could be mistaken.

I'm with you on taking care of the Earth though. Whether you view it as heavenly father's gift or mother Earth, it is our duty to care for her.

(Also on that note, wasn't the antichrist supposed to come first? That's a frightening though for those that will believe it.)

Haha, indeed!

Although if you truly believe it there's nothing frightening about the antichrist razz